Curse

pingu666 · Aug 29, 2007, 09:26 PM // 21:26

ive got all 3melee types, my favourite is probably assassin, huge spike damage, but combine with moebius strike/assassins promise to give a pretty consistant 100dps :]

warrior next, can "tank" well, decent damage, easy deep wound and aoe with axe, hammer for shutdown, watch yourself <3 for partywide protection.

dervish, cool attack animations (sin has cool ones too), aoe, avatars. downside is the undesireableness of condition giving skills, casting enchantments gets old fast, and i dont find the energy management that great either, but u can use the attack skills any time u want as there energy based...

in pve, warriors and dervs pretty much competeing for the same spot in a party, while assassins are a option slot

Snow Bunny · Aug 29, 2007, 10:25 PM // 22:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkpower Alchemist

And you all are still not reading what I said. I SAID that AoB is a mobile attacker capable of a split scenario. I SAID that when comparing AoB to a warrior the AoB in PvE is more versatile thanks to various already mentioned reasons when comparing a damage dealing warrior to AoB. I SAID a static tank is best when played by a WARRIOR.

I also said that comparing PvP AoB to PvE AoB was a matter of usefulness(PvE) against countermeasures(PvP) where AoB doesn't excell at and is thus not as useful as the derv form counterparts. Yet, the warrior has similar downfalls in PvP, yet the elite slot isn't used. In PvP, both have a place dependent on the team build in play. The AoB isn't used in PvP because the use would not be as effective when comparing it to a warrior. Yet, the derv is used with other forms to counter heavy conditions/hexes. That is when you hear that Melandru/Dwayna are better, but that's in those scenarios, which I also mention in this thread already.

As for an armor comparison, 96/116(Warrior) to 110(AoB) gives a clear advantage when facing elemental damage. The shield isn't as huge a difference to the arguement when comparing a +5 armor mod on the scythe and the natural +25hp on the armor of the dervish. The difference then goes to what the AoB does in comparison to the warrior. AoB brings plenty versatility that a warrior doesn't in PvE, though either works fine. The average warrior doesn't have a perfect shield in most cases, but for arguement sake, that's what we will work with. -5(20%) and hopefully a sup absorption rune, plus a knights insignia make the warrior better at damage absorption if the derv isn't heavily enchanted, which most are.

Are we all on the same page? I hope so.

In the place of heavy enchantment stripping, the warrior is better due to the dependence of EVERY derv on enchantments. In a place where stripping isn't heavy but conditions are, the derv with multiple enchantments is superior when using Mystic regeneration and other enchantments. The AoB in this situation would do just fine, where Melandru would excell. It could be also said for a place of heavy hexes and using Dwayna.

The OB tank is a static tank, and thus needs no mobility. A warrior just taking the brunt of the attacks and tries to maintain aggro for as long as possible. If you talk PvP, this warrior build is useless. If in PvE, it is a niche build for certain areas. In most PvE, the warrior that you would encounter uses speed boost,IAS,and attack skills-just like AoB+Heart of Fury and attack skills. The difference then comes in build makeup. Utility wise, the derv will always be more versatile than your average warrior. A static tank and a heavily armored mobile attacker are 2 different things, but a standard warrior build and a AoB are quite the same, except the AoB in using 2 skills does what a warrior does with 3 skills. This is about the average warrior, so please, let's not further confuse it. The total build useage wasn't what I mentioned in my previous example, but what it took to make an effective warrior compared to an effective AoB dervish. Please, keep my quotes in context.

I never said a warrior uses only 3 or 4 skills, but used 3 skills to do what AoB did in 2.

I hope I've made my point on AoB clear?

As for Icy's comment, No one man is greater than another. Keep your fruitless and useless comment to yourself.

when you are in iQ I will agree with you. Until then...

stick to pve. Garbage pve.

Warriors are great at splitting btw, if you've ever done anything bearing a remote semblance to gvg.

The argument comes back to this - Dervishes can get with an elite with what warriors already have if you're talking AoB.

Floski · Aug 29, 2007, 10:50 PM // 22:50

Quote:

Just face it... Warriors are far easier to pick up and play effectively than Assassins or Dervishes... A n00b warrior will almost invariably beat a n00b assassin, and is quite likely to beat a n00b dervish too... simply because spamming skills can work for the warrior but will not work for the other two.

I'm sure what you're trying to express (albeit inefficiently) is that Assassins and Dervishes tend to have a specific order to their attack sequence which generally needs to be adhered to for maximum effectiveness.... whereas Warriors generally don't... allowing for a bit more potential for variety.

It's pretty clear you have no idea what you're talking about. What is an assassin if not a button spammer? You select a target and you press 1,2,3,4,5 in order. OMG, SOOOOO HARD FOR A NOOB TO DO. Then you run around while your combo recharges because you're useless with your 7-17 daggers, and then do it again. Dervishes are pretty gimped out of form.

Warriors are hardly button mashers. You need good positioning, and knowing when to unload adren is pretty key. To be good with bullstrike, you need to not button mash and not suck.

nem coke · Aug 30, 2007, 12:23 AM // 00:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Floski

It's pretty clear you have no idea what you're talking about. What is an assassin if not a button spammer? You select a target and you press 1,2,3,4,5 in order. OMG, SOOOOO HARD FOR A NOOB TO DO. Then you run around while your combo recharges because you're useless with your 7-17 daggers, and then do it again. Dervishes are pretty gimped out of form.

Warriors are hardly button mashers. You need good positioning, and knowing when to unload adren is pretty key. To be good with bullstrike, you need to not button mash and not suck.

Come on... SP assassins are hard to play, you have to be skilled to press 1-7 in order, not like noob warriors who don't do that. Effective Frenzy and Bull's Strike usage takes even less skill than that.

Kern Wolf · Aug 30, 2007, 12:55 AM // 00:55

To the OP:
My words are based on you playing PvE.....
Ignore your guild in this case, and roll your warrior.
Play him/her--do NOT have people run/power level you (IMO, that's where the largest majority of absolutely crappy warriors come from. Yeah, they may be level 20, and yeah they may have "leet" gear, but those people who had their butts run all over the map can't fight worth a damn. They are easy to spot).
IMO, start in Prophecies, and fight your way through the whole chapter.
Whatever your secondary profession is, don't ignore the skills for it, but dont load your skillbar with skills from it--if you want to use skills from your secondary profession, use, at most, 2 skills at any one time.

Find the weapon you enjoy using the most (I prefer swords 1st, then axes, then hammers), and make sure you get EVERY skill for it (elites, as well as those you can quest for/buy). IMO, warriors rely on their armor more than any other profession, so figure out a style of melee fighting that you like to do, and equip your warrior appropriately. Keep your eye out for good weapon drops, with good mods (dont be afraid to use collector gear, and mod those when you can).

Also, at the same time, make sure you're getting all possible skills for your secondary profession (because while I say put no more than 2 second prof skills in your skillbar, the more skills you have for that profession, the more you can experiment with your build a bit.)

Contrary to popular belief, strength is NOT a crappy attribute line--that pile of garbage comes from those who have NO business rolling a warrior. To try and explain that to those people who disparage warriors is a waste of time--if you play your warrior through, you'll find out what I mean.

Try to group with no people until you hit the desert (or at least the 3 missions you need to ascend). During that time, learn how to kite, learn what aggroing is, and learn when it is time to hit and run. By that time, you should have the basics down cold.

When you've gotten to Droknars, get the best armor you can, rune it up, and finish the chapter (by this time, your reliance on people will be your choice--you should be able to finish the chapter with henches. Dont get carried away trying to do 2-3 missions at a time, because using henches can be a bit draining, but that's the price you pay for learning how to play the warrior the right way--IMHO).
My main char is a W/E..I've played him through all three chapters. I didn't group with people until the last few missions in each chapter. I get a lot of compliments on my build as an Obsidian Flesh tank in fow--that is, when I'm not telling casters to stay the hell out of my aggro for at least 10 seconds...

Darkpower Alchemist · Aug 30, 2007, 02:40 AM // 02:40

It's sad to see that people dismiss facts to harp on something because they don't like a specific skill comparison. PvP/GvG warriors are not what this thread was refering to. My comparison of AoB being the "Ultimate Tank" still stands in context to tanking- which when you think of a tank, does it stand still or does it constantly move in a juggernaut like fashion? Unstoppable when built to be so.

Dictionary.com for those who need to know the meaning of the real english version of the word?

And once again, no one man is greater than another-I don't care about if it's a game player, or a real life man to man in a conversation of opposing viewpoints. Affiliation aside, at the end of the day, never look as another person as being greater/better than you. Until God is spelled with an "E", no person alive is better than I or more deserving to make his/her point. Flame as you wish, and ignore me all you want. Your comments against my way of thinking are no longer important.

My point is made. Until next thread...

Cathode_Reborn · Aug 30, 2007, 07:18 AM // 07:18

Keep in mind this is the pve section, if you're gonna bring something up about pvp be sure to mention it.

After all this debating, I still havent seen many specifically listing a warrior's pros besides tanking. Outside DoA, tanks are almost always a waste of a party slot. No one needs a useless tank in a good team. Warriors don't tank in pvp and they shouldn't do so in pve. The whole tanking discussion is ridiculous. If you're a melee class that can't offer high damage to the team, you might as well just leave.

Warriors are in competition with the 2 other melee classes which have their own pros:

Sins: 130+ armor ignoring damage about every 2 seconds. That's not including damage from the daggers.....they may be weak but they crit often and still add damage. Against 60al, a customized 15%dmg sword does 49dmg. Daggers do 38dmg. 11 damage less. Sins can keep an IAS up easy using Crit Agility, or Flail for areas with disenchants. Dagger attacks arn't extremely weak, but you still can't get away with trying to kill something through auto-attacking, which is a sin's weakness - if one of those attacks are somehow disabled, it can ruin them.

Dervs: strong Aoe attacks and an easy to apply deep wound. With Aura of Holy Might, scythe crit hits can easily hit in the 100's. Wearying Strike = non-elite Eviscerate on a 6 sec recharge. I always felt their main downsides are non-crit hits sometimes doing very low damage, and relying on enchantments to do high damage.....Pve enemies pack disenchants pretty often sometimes. Derv's can have abit of trouble when it comes to energy too - sins get tons of it from crit strikes, and wars don't even use energy often. Dervs get mysticism (nerfed before nf's release) which doesn't always get you the energy you need

Wars: while there's 2 other melee classes, I think they're mainly in competition with Assassins, since Dervs function abit different from them both. I'll be honest, Wars used to be one of my fav classes but after I created my Sin, I started using him much less. I won't say they're useless since I have one myself and I know they can deal good damage, but it stills feel abit lacking compared to what a sin can do sometimes. The good thing about them is they're a good balance between sins/dervs combining decent weapon damage with armor ignoring attacks which are pretty spammable depending on the weapon you use. In a few situations, I'm sure they can outdo dervs by providing a steady high dps that comes naturally (no enchantments and less reliance on attack skills). Against low armor targets (casters), they can do damage comparable to a moebius/blossom sin....the part where warriors seem fall behind is that sins can hit repeat moebius/blossom for a long time and most of that damage is unaffected by armor.

On a random note, I always hated how the Sever/Gash combo (which is pretty strong) is sometimes made useless in pve because of enemies that can't bleed. It seems KD-immune enemies are even more common which bothers me alot since I use hammers often. It's completely stupid that anet did this and it's just plain unfair to warriors and should be removed since other classes don't rely on bleeding/kd as much as them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kern Wolf

Contrary to popular belief, strength is NOT a crappy attribute line--that pile of garbage comes from those who have NO business rolling a warrior. To try and explain that to those people who disparage warriors is a waste of time--if you play your warrior through, you'll find out what I mean.

When people say that, they're referring to Strength itself and it's effect - it barely adds any damage at all to your attack skills. Strength sucks, but the skills are good. If the skills weren't good, there'd be no reason to put attribute points in it.

nem coke · Aug 30, 2007, 01:00 PM // 13:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cathode_Reborn

Keep in mind this is the pve section, if you're gonna bring something up about pvp be sure to mention it.

The guy quoted by Floski says enough imo. As for PvE tank and strength sucking... yea sure. Imo get 13 strength, take sentinel's armor and you have more armor than Balthazar Dervish without a single skill, no risk of loosing aggro due to your moving speed and you have free elite skill slot. If you want mobility on tank, go W/A with return or something...when GW:EN comes out you won't even need /A for shadow stepping to allies. Trust me, shadow stepping to allies + having a KD skill is awesome. Even if you loose aggro you can get back and fix it pretty easy.

Also the fact the most people in PvE don't understand: tank is not there to deal dmg, he's there to take the dmg instead rest of the bunch.

Yanman.be · Aug 30, 2007, 01:09 PM // 13:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Floski

It's pretty clear you have no idea what you're talking about. What is an assassin if not a button spammer? You select a target and you press 1,2,3,4,5 in order. OMG, SOOOOO HARD FOR A NOOB TO DO.

Being a good sin means you know what target to attack, not what buttons to press.

Ensign · Aug 30, 2007, 06:44 PM // 18:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkpower Alchemist

Until God is spelled with an "E", no person alive is better than I or more deserving to make his/her point. Flame as you wish, and ignore me all you want. Your comments against my way of thinking are no longer important.

Oh, you've made your point. Your point was *wrong*. Factually wrong, in direct conflict with observable reality. Your way of thinking is to believe things that are wrong, and ignore all evidence to the contrary. It's clearly served you well so far. However I think it is valuable to point out to anyone reading this thread how utterly useless your opinions are so they don't waste their time giving them consideration.

Age · Aug 30, 2007, 10:47 PM // 22:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kern Wolf

To the OP:
My words are based on you playing PvE.....
Ignore your guild in this case, and roll your warrior.
Play him/her--do NOT have people run/power level you (IMO, that's where the largest majority of absolutely crappy warriors come from. Yeah, they may be level 20, and yeah they may have "leet" gear, but those people who had their butts run all over the map can't fight worth a damn. They are easy to spot).
IMO, start in Prophecies, and fight your way through the whole chapter.
Whatever your secondary profession is, don't ignore the skills for it, but dont load your skillbar with skills from it--if you want to use skills from your secondary profession, use, at most, 2 skills at any one time.

Find the weapon you enjoy using the most (I prefer swords 1st, then axes, then hammers), and make sure you get EVERY skill for it (elites, as well as those you can quest for/buy). IMO, warriors rely on their armor more than any other profession, so figure out a style of melee fighting that you like to do, and equip your warrior appropriately. Keep your eye out for good weapon drops, with good mods (dont be afraid to use collector gear, and mod those when you can).

Also, at the same time, make sure you're getting all possible skills for your secondary profession (because while I say put no more than 2 second prof skills in your skillbar, the more skills you have for that profession, the more you can experiment with your build a bit.)

Contrary to popular belief, strength is NOT a crappy attribute line--that pile of garbage comes from those who have NO business rolling a warrior. To try and explain that to those people who disparage warriors is a waste of time--if you play your warrior through, you'll find out what I mean.

Try to group with no people until you hit the desert (or at least the 3 missions you need to ascend). During that time, learn how to kite, learn what aggroing is, and learn when it is time to hit and run. By that time, you should have the basics down cold.

When you've gotten to Droknars, get the best armor you can, rune it up, and finish the chapter (by this time, your reliance on people will be your choice--you should be able to finish the chapter with henches. Dont get carried away trying to do 2-3 missions at a time, because using henches can be a bit draining, but that's the price you pay for learning how to play the warrior the right way--IMHO).
My main char is a W/E..I've played him through all three chapters. I didn't group with people until the last few missions in each chapter. I get a lot of compliments on my build as an Obsidian Flesh tank in fow--that is, when I'm not telling casters to stay the hell out of my aggro for at least 10 seconds...

Very nice post i must say sums it all up.

Quote:

Originally Posted byDarkPower Alchemist
It's sad to see that people dismiss facts to harp on something because they don't like a specific skill comparison. PvP/GvG warriors are not what this thread was refering to. My comparison of AoB being the "Ultimate Tank" still stands in context to tanking- which when you think of a tank, does it stand still or does it constantly move in a juggernaut like fashion? Unstoppable when built to be so.

Warriors aren't tanks in GW when will people learn this.

nem coke · Aug 30, 2007, 11:25 PM // 23:25

I conclude Obsidian Tanks are designed to kill the stuff in DoA

But on the other side, it's true that it's very rare that a party needs a tank.

haggus71 · Aug 31, 2007, 12:31 AM // 00:31

Wolf wins, for actually answering the question the best way. Make a warrior, learn how to play it the right way, then make your judgement.

As for Darkpower Alchemist's AoB kite chaser, no one mentioned enraging charge/crippling slash for kites? Or did I skip it? That seems to me the easiest way to take out a kite, and I just count....one......two skills? and neither die on you for two minutes.

~ Dan ~ · Sep 01, 2007, 12:26 PM // 12:26

Wow, just, wow...

Pretty much all the way through reading this thread, i'm laughing. It is clear to me, that all these people criticizing the Dervish class have zero understanding of that profession.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Floski

Dervishes are pretty gimped out of form.

Now, i picked out this statement as it is brilliant in showing an opinion of somebody who knows nothing of the Dervish. He clearly doesn't see there are many options (of which, better) instead of avatars, and if we're talking PvE, there's Eternal Aura to keep you in form 100% of the time.

The way i see it, around 80-90% of this thread is filled with hypocrits. They state that "your friends are noobs they don't understand the warrior!!".. and they do the exact same with the Dervish class. If you can effectively play a Dervish, they are one of the best classes in the game.

My best advice to the OP? Ignore these people. Play a Warrior. Play a Dervish, and make the choice based on YOUR preference.

Darkpower Alchemist · Sep 02, 2007, 05:09 AM // 05:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Oh, you've made your point. Your point was *wrong*. Factually wrong, in direct conflict with observable reality. Your way of thinking is to believe things that are wrong, and ignore all evidence to the contrary. It's clearly served you well so far. However I think it is valuable to point out to anyone reading this thread how utterly useless your opinions are so they don't waste their time giving them consideration.

Ensign, I had a higher thought of you until this statement. I had no intention of commenting again about this subject, and I won't but you haven't said anything to disallow anything I said in reference to AoB and warriors in general play. They do nearly the same things, but the mechanics are different. Yet, you just refuse to accept it. You want to say since the derv uses an elite slot to do it, it is worse for it, then that is your opinion, not fact. The Observable reality is that a derv in th AoB form is the equal if not the better of any warrior for that period of time. That is the observable reality. Only the blind can't see that. Crip Slash+Flail doesn't boost speed and give a snare to the target, like AoB and Crip sweep. AoB+Crip Sweep+HoF= Crip Slash+Flail+Enraging Charge...but the stances cancel...so that won't work will it? Observable reality...

[wiki]Eternal Aura[/wiki]

In PvE, with this enchantment, that same AoB derv lasts forever with nearly no downtime, if any at all. The entire derv bar can be kept running 90% of the time. That is observable reality... Their can be no contradictions in reality. Your opinion is understood when not using the aformentioned enchantment, but when the enchantment is viable, the arguement is just noise...

@Age...you don't seem to grasp the english language too well, so I'll make it simple for you to grasp. Tanks move constantly, slow or fast, and appear to be virtually unstoppable on the field of battle. The general thought of a tank in games is a static(stationary) tank(target). The 2 concept do not contradict each other, but use the same jargon to explain 2 totally different actions/activities. To tank someone and to Tank for a group/an area doesn't mean the same thing.

"You just Tanked that dude!" -Rolled over your opposition.-
"OF Tank LFG" -Static Tank/ Stationary Aggro Control Player-

2 different actions. Geez...

Yukito Kunisaki · Sep 02, 2007, 02:01 PM // 14:01

I think your biggest problem Darkpower is accepting that you CAN be wrong at times... You'll be the better person because of it if you do.

Ensign has been playing GW since well, I've been playing GW (Betas in 2k4 or so I believe). We've been around for a while. I cried almost* when the Warrior primary attribute got gimped to high hell...

But the thread title states, are Warriors useful? The resounding echo is... Yes. It seems you're trying to convince people that these supposed God Avatar Forms are of any real use. I don't think they are really. They're useless for 150s. after like what, 30~ s. of uptime? Warriors are useful after all buffs and debuffs and other junk are countered.

How can one possibly argue that fact? You're AS GOOD AS a warrior 30s. of the time, but much more worthless 150s. of the time... :?

So you have to use a skill slot to keep it going forever do ya? I've stamped this argument with the big "INEFFICIENT" logo...

Stormlord Alex · Sep 02, 2007, 02:08 PM // 14:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yukito Kunisaki

Odd, I thought Avatars were disabled... [as in can't recharge or do ANYTHING with them after being used...]

Eternal Aura recharges avatars.
I know, 'cuz I use Lyssa all the time.

... And no matter how much you argue... Balthazar still sucks. srssly

Yukito Kunisaki · Sep 02, 2007, 02:14 PM // 14:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stormlord Alex

Eternal Aura recharges avatars.
I know, 'cuz I use Lyssa all the time.

... And no matter how much you argue... Balthazar still sucks. srssly

Good catch, I was in the middle of editing my post lol...

But again, to use a skill to recharge a specific skill, very redundant and in no way efficient...

I can see it useful for spells/signets sure, but it seems to me that Forms + instant recharge > Warrior...

Well, if a foe were to, Diversion your recharge skill "skill" (lol) then what? It'd be nice if there was a way to counter forms aside from simply cripple/speed hexing them and running away laughing

Chicken Ftw · Sep 02, 2007, 04:32 PM // 16:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkpower Alchemist

blah blah I <3 AoB, Eternal Aura lets me keep it up forevar!!!11

If AoB sucks, having it up all the time doesn't make it suddenly not suck. Fact: taking a terrible elite instead of a good elite is bad. Also fact: AoB is a terrible elite. Using your elite to have the same or slightly more armor than a warrior is bad, no two ways of stating it. Observable reality is that the dervish using AoB is somewhat useless and should be replaced by one with a better elite/better bar in general.

Quote:

Crip Slash+Flail doesn't boost speed and give a snare to the target, like AoB and Crip sweep. AoB+Crip Sweep+HoF= Crip Slash+Flail+Enraging Charge...but the stances cancel...so that won't work will it?

One uses Enraging to get that one hit on the enemy, not for a permanent speed boost, then uses Flail to finish him off. Besides, when do you need a speed boost during combat anyway? IAS is better.

~ Dan ~ · Sep 02, 2007, 09:17 PM // 21:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yukito Kunisaki

It seems you're trying to convince people that these supposed God Avatar Forms are of any real use. I don't think they are really. They're useless for 150s. after like what, 30~ s. of uptime? Warriors are useful after all buffs and debuffs and other junk are countered.

ok, you stated you've been "around a long time".. well how long does it take you to read a skill description? if you PLAYED a Dervish, and actually specced the primary attribute like normal people, you'd see lyssa, dwayna and balthazar all last 70+ secs at the usual mysticism level: 12 ~ 15. Even Melandru and Grenth, last 40+. And if you were a good dervish, you'd know some of those avatars (namely, Dwayna and Lyssa) are of great use.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yukito Kunisaki

How can one possibly argue that fact? You're AS GOOD AS a warrior 30s. of the time, but much more worthless 150s. of the time... :?

These are from primary attribute lines:

[skill]Avatar Of Dwayna[/skill] What warrior skill has that self heal and hex removal on skill usage?

[skill]Avatar Of Lyssa[/skill] How can a Warrior hit +60 or so damage on foes using skills? That's not including the base damage either btw (Mystic sweep for say, another +30 damage?

[skill]Avatar Of Melandru[/skill] Which Warrior skill makes you immune to conditions?

[skill]Avatar Of Grenth[/skill] Although nerfed so badly, does a Warrior have enchant strip PER HIT..?

Avatar of Balthazar i won't mention as its a pathetic skill anyway....

A Dervish is much more worthless than a Warrior most of the time? You know nothing....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yukito Kunisaki

So you have to use a skill slot to keep it going forever do ya? I've stamped this argument with the big "INEFFICIENT" logo...

Yes, eternal aura. You fail at reading the post above yours.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yukito Kunisaki

Well, if a foe were to, Diversion your recharge skill "skill" (lol) then what? It'd be nice if there was a way to counter forms aside from simply cripple/speed hexing them and running away laughing

What if that mesmer casts Soothing Images on your warrior? You seem to assume Dervish are counterable but yet Warriors are immortal. Also, again, please know the Dervish class before you throw out counters. "hexing them and running away laughing".. tell me, what does Avatar of Dwayna do? What does Vow Of Silence do?... And if you knew what you're taking about, you'd realise Dervish are not useless during Avatar downtimes. Far from it, actually.